Germany calls for a ban on combustion engine cars by 2030

"404 - User No Longer Available" (toni-cipriani) 10/09/2016 at 12:51 • Filed to: None

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Discuss.

Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 12:57

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Good (flame-suit on)

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 13:00

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It needs to happen unfortunately. I just hope what replaces our dinosaur burners is actually more sustainable. EVs depend on the electricity production being clean which isnt always the case. Hydrogen is even worse in that respect.

Urambo Tauro > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 13:00

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(Thanks, Spiegel .)

Wheelerguy > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 13:05

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Thanks, Winterkorn.

Axial > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 13:08

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Are they also going to ban coal-fired electricity by the same time, something they’ve actually increased their reliance on relatively recently?

404 - User No Longer Available > Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch 10/09/2016 at 13:08

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Well I personally don’t have qualms with electric propulsion, as long as they can make it feel like an ICE. I don’t care how electric motors have a flat peak torque and how it’s technologically better, how it feels is important to me. Just like manual vs automatic, physical keyboard vs virtual.

Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 13:13

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Nah, don’t pretend it’s ICE, let it be the torque monster it is. No fake gears, just have various regen/braking settings to vary the driving style.

DarkCreamyBeer > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 13:17

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Needs to be done if we are to reduce CO2 emissions, but needs to be paired with nuclear power generation, which everyone is (understandably) squeamish about. That’s the trade off we have to face. Solar and wind can get us a close, but nuclear will have to fill the gap.

As far as hydrogen vs electric: I think there could be a future for hydrogen/battery hybrids.

wiffleballtony > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 13:25

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Doesn’t anyone see that this isn’t solving anything. You’re just changing the problem. Instead of the limiting resource being oil it’s now metals in batteries. Then you still have to generate the power, cleanly. No one wants a power station in their backyard.

Berang > Axial 10/09/2016 at 13:27

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I thought Germany had about equal parts coal and nuclear? Most of their plants are oil fired for whatever that’s worth.

Berang > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 13:30

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the future is now

Dusty Ventures > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 13:31

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I’m not against the idea, but I see a few roadblocks that could make a 100% ban difficult-to-impossible, at least in that time frame. The first is batteries. Some people need to drive further than the range allows (for example, I’m driving 400 miles today). The Tesla superchargers have done an incredible job reducing charge times, but waiting an hour to recharge is still a big ask when people are used to that taking five minutes. Not to mention the commercial vehicles that, due to the nature of their jobs, need to run all day. Trucks, farm equipment, construction equipment, will they be exempt? Additionally, replacing all the cars in Germany with electric vehicles is going to take a lot of resources, namely lithium. At the current production rate lithium resources are already starting to become stretched, finding enough for this increase will be a challenge. (Side note, one of the largest known lithium deposits is under the Uyuni Salt Flats, the world’s largest salt flat, which is home to flamingos and other exotic wildlife. Mining the flats is likely to severely damage them, ruining the habitat and endangering the wildlife. Ironic when it’s being done in the name of “going green.”)

The second issue is cost. Even with subsidies electric cars aren’t cheap. For those who have to rely on buying and maintaining a sub-$5,000 car replacing it with an electric just isn’t an option. Are they going to have their only transportation option taken away and simply be told “figure it out?”

Point is I’m not against the idea, but there are some questions and issues that will need to be resolved before 2030 if it’s going to happen.

Axial > Berang 10/09/2016 at 13:32

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Their plan post-Fukushima is to shut down the nuclear, and IIRC they had already at least partially achieved that last I read.

JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! > Dusty Ventures 10/09/2016 at 13:35

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This is exactly why I don’t ever fully believe articles like that.

It is nearly impossible to quit cold turkey like that. In a super small town, it might be possible. Trying to get a very large, entire country to do anything like that isn’t going to happen.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 13:38

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2030 seems very ambitous, the German government wants 1,000,000 electric vehicles on the streets by 2020 but that’s very unlikely that even 200,000 will be sold by then despite government incentives. The aforementioned has been introduced this summer and so far very few have claimed the incentive so far. IMO we won’t see a sudden death of the ice in the coming years, although hybrids, weight savings, cylinder deactivation, particle filters for most gasoline engined cars, etc. I think 2040 is more realistic.

Dusty Ventures > JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! 10/09/2016 at 13:43

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Actually it think it’s the larger cities where this could work better, over the small towns. Cities are more likely to have better infrastructure sooner (more people means more demand means better return on investment), plus it’s easier to pick up the slack with public transportation and ridesharing options. Out in the smaller towns and more rural areas there’s fewer options, less infrastructure, and more distance to cover between resources.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 13:49

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I mean yes it’s good but battery development needs to be massive.

slipperysallylikespenguins > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 14:03

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Don’t really care. I have no interest in buying any post 2005 cars anyway. As long as used cars are an option(as it sounds like it will be in the article), then I’ll be fine. It won’t be long before California does the same thing.

Phyrxes once again has a wagon! > Berang 10/09/2016 at 14:17

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I believe Germany has a surprising amount of solar as well.

this is not matt farah's foxbodymiata > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 10/09/2016 at 14:50

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I’d assume the goal of such a measure is to encourage advanced development that most companies would otherwise wait for market pressure to invest in.

this is not matt farah's foxbodymiata > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 14:56

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Bout time. I hope other countries follow suit. Japan for example could pull it off.

I don’t think Murica will ever get behind an outright ban... but we are the home of the free, the land of the corporate subsidy. So there’s a lot that can be done to encourage growth here as well. Or, ya know, we can just let Florida sink.

jimz > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 15:01

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Fine, but you should have thought about this before putting in plans to shutter all of your nuclear power plants.

jimz > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 15:05

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have you driven a car with pure electric propulsion? I had a 2016 Volt for the weekend, and even with its “measly” 170 hp just feels fast. Nevermind how bonkers something like a P100d is.

Jonee > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 15:39

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This is easier to accomplish in Europe than here, but 2030 seems ambitious. If they can figure out a way to give me a stick shift in an electric car, I’m ok with it.

404 - User No Longer Available > jimz 10/09/2016 at 15:45

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I’ve driven the previous gen Volt. And when I meant by feel. Sure it feels powerful like you said, but it feels binary, like on-and-off with the power delivery, that’s what I meant.

fintail > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 15:51

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No doubt Eurocrat weenies who don’t know about or won’t admit to the pollution externalities of alternative fuel vehicles. All to compensate for the guilty feelings given to them by that wonderful generation of 68. I think the Merkel years will go down as the silliest for Germany since 1945.

It very well may happen over time, but 13 years and 2 months from now, good luck with that. Sounds like a make work project for consultants and regulators who already suck down too much as it is.

My bird IS the word > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 16:31

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Like with everything politicians say, I’ll believe it when I see it.

I understand the need for alternative energy, but this isn’t effective nor rational.

ranwhenparked > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 18:46

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It’s unrealistic and impractical, and possibly illegal under EU rules (Germany has to get approval from Brussels to repave a bridge, how are they going to react with a new rule that effectively closes the German market to every internal combustion engined car built by France, Sweden, and Italy?).

jimz > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/09/2016 at 19:57

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maybe it’s the lack of noticeable gear changes.

CaptDale - is secretly British > 404 - User No Longer Available 10/10/2016 at 14:37

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And BOO! I guess Germany can suck a fat one.